Episode 16: Accessibility for All

In part two of our multi-part series on customer experience, we’re focusing on accessibility, especially when it comes to online services. 

This coming May 21 is the 15th anniversary of Global Accessibility Awareness Day, the perfect time to discuss this crucial topic. You’ve heard us discuss accessibility on this show before, in our discussions with the Human-Centered Design Team and the NYS Chief Customer Experience Officer.

But for someone who can’t see, what is the experience when accessing government services online? We say, “accessibility is for everyone,” but what does that really mean? How does that affect the average New Yorker living their daily life? What does “a eleven y” stand for? 

On this episode, we sit down with Ethan Ligon and Michele Bruno of the Human-Centered Design team as they explain how building accessibility into online resources makes the customer experience better for everyone.

Thank you for listening to the IT’S a Tech Podcast. For more information about ITS, visit our website at its.ny.gov. Follow us on X, LinkedIn, Instagram and Facebook.

Transcript

 0:01
 You're listening to the IT'S a Tech Podcast, an engaging conversation about the game changing technology solutions being advanced by the state's Office of Information Technology Services.

 0:12
 Learn how ITS makes IT happen for more than 50 state agencies and over 20 million New Yorkers.

 0:20
 In Part 2 of our multi-part series on customer experience, we are focusing on accessibility, especially when it comes to online services.

 0:29
 This coming May 21st is the 15th anniversary of Global Accessibility Awareness Day, the perfect time to discuss this crucial topic.

 0:39
 You've heard us discuss accessibility on the show before in our discussions with the Human-Centered Design team and the New York State Chief Customer Experience Officer.

 0:48
 But for someone who can't see, what is the experience when accessing government services online?

 0:54
 We say accessibility is for everyone.

 0:57
 But what does that really mean?

 0:59
 How does that affect the average New Yorker living their daily life?

 1:04
 What does A11Y stand for?

 1:07
 On this episode, we sit down with Ethan Ligon and Michele Bruno of the Human Center Design team as they explain how building accessibility into online resources makes the customer experience better for everyone.

 1:22
 Ethan, Michele, thank you so much for talking with us today.

 1:26
 The idea of capital "a" accessibility as a field is relatively new, especially when we're talking about online accessibility.

 1:35
 How did both of you come to your current roles?

 1:37
 Michele, can we start with you?

 1:38
 Sure.

 1:39
 I started in the accessibility arena.

 1:44
 I was finishing my master's at the time and I said, I'll give you a year because after my master's, I don't know where you know what I'm going to be doing.

 1:51
 And fast forward, I was there in that role for 15 years and then continued on.

 1:57
 It's just accessibility is very near and dear to my heart.

 2:01
 And when you become passionate about something, there's just you know, there, there's there's no ends.

 2:08
 And so that's how I continued my accessibility journey here at ITS just a little bit, a year ago.

 2:16
 Wow.

 2:16
 And so we've built the team and Ethan is part of our team.

 2:21
 And Ethan, how did you get into this role?

 2:24
 Well, it all probably started about four years ago now.

 2:27
 I start, I got a job at my university, the University of North Texas.

 2:32
 And one of the things that I was doing there, I was basically doing what I do now, except instead of agency websites, it was online courses.

 2:39
 So we were looking at all the PDFs, all the PowerPoints, all the online textbooks, and we would check them for accessibility and try and work with the professor to actually make them better.

 2:50
 So I was doing that and I realized I really liked the job and it came naturally because I've been blind since birth, so I've been using screen readers forever.

 2:58
 So it was a really easy job to do.

 2:59
 And then all of a sudden last year, what was that?

 3:03
 I made a post on LinkedIn of all things, and Luke Charde, who also works at ITS, happened to see it and wrote me and said, hey, you know, I work at ITS, I'd like to have a conversation.

 3:14
 And so I came up here for the interview and that was that.

 3:18
 I, back in September, I moved up here, 1,500 miles away from home and here we are, been here for seven months.

 3:24
 Wow, that's amazing.

 3:28
 So Michele, you list your title as the Digital Accessibility Team Lead with accessibility spelled A11Y.

 3:36
 What does this stand for and how is it used?

 3:40
 So A11Y is the shorthand way of spelling the word accessibility and it's a real thing.

 3:47
 It's called a numeronym.

 3:49
 And so you take the letter A for accessibility, you take the Y at the end and there's 11 letters in the middle.

 3:56
 And so shorthand we do a 1 1 Y.

 3:59
 And if you can imagine how many times I would type accessibility throughout the day, it's really a a time saver.

 4:06
 So, and it's something that if you know, hashtag A11Y, if you're in other accessibility, you know, if you're doing anything in the industry, you see that all over.

 4:17
 And so I thought it would be kind of neat to start that as a attention getter, if nothing else, to to to start, you know, building the awareness of accessibility and what it's all about.

 4:30
 Right, absolutely.

 4:32
 And Ethan, I know you mentioned using a screen reader.

 4:34
 How, how do screen readers deal with with a, a numeronym?

 4:39
 You kind of have to set them up.

 4:40
 Normally they'll just say A11Y, but if you, you can set it so that it says accessibility instead when it reads that.

 4:47
 So I do that because it comes up in chats and teams messages and stuff all the time.

 4:52
 So for me, I, I have it set so it'll just say accessibility when it reads A11Y, but normally it wouldn't do that by itself.

 5:00
 Right, right, right.

 5:00
 That makes sense.

 5:02
 So we've talked about accessibility before on this podcast, so today we really want to take the opportunity to do a deep dive into the topic.

 5:11
 Now obviously, Ethan, you are blind and you have extensive practice using online accessibility aids.

 5:17
 Can you take our listeners through what you experience when you access a website?

 5:22
 So I guess when I go to a website, really what I'm looking for is the structure.

 5:26
 So things like headings and links and buttons, I'm not really going to be scanning through the page visually because of course I can't, but that's really what I'm going to look for.

 5:35
 So I'm probably going to find the headings, maybe like Home or About Us or something like that.

 5:41
 And then you would find the link you want within that.

 5:43
 And that's kind of how you navigate around web pages and finding, going from page to page and filling out forms, things like that.

 5:51
 And so for us sighted users, when we look at a page, we sort of take the whole thing in, you know, in a, in a split second.

 6:00
 And and so with screen readers, it's really interesting because it's, it's the technology component that helps Ethan get that sort of overall visualization, if you will, of what the web page has on it as far as you know, left, right, navigation, top, bottom, how many buttons there are, how many links there are.

 6:23
 And so the technology from the screen reader announcing it helps people with vision impairments be able to grasp like when you look at a page, you get the whole sort of the picture in a glance.

 6:38
 Right, absolutely.

 6:38
 One of the reasons when I know our department mentions this a lot, when you hyperlink to the words "click here" it's the least useful thing you can possibly do.

 6:48
 So and yes, everybody does it all the time, all the time, all the time.

 6:52
 Listeners, if you take nothing else from this website or this podcast, please on your websites or and your documents, if you're hyperlinking text, please make it descriptive.

 7:02
 And the reason for that right is if you have a lot of links, which are our agency, you know, our websites usually do that for screen reader users.

 7:11
 All they hear is, you know, click here, click here, click here.

 7:15
 And so we could, those of us that are visual can see sort of the narrative that surrounds the link and have an idea of where it's going to bring us.

 7:24
 But for those people that can't see it, of course, all they hear is click here, click here, click here times however many links are on a page.

 7:31
 And so that's why it's really important to have a description for what those links are, just a really short description so that people like Ethan can know whether they want to click the link or not.

 7:43
 And that also goes for things not just click here, but it also goes for learn more, learn more, learn more, learn more. Maybe something more like, you know, learn more about this thing, more info on this, that kind of thing.

 7:56
 Exactly.

 7:58
 So we already, I think, touched on this, but let's go a little bit deeper.

 8:02
 What can putting yourself in the shoes of someone who is differently abled teach the average user when talking about creating a better online experience?

 8:11
 Well, I think one of the ways, for example, we did a whole bunch of demonstration videos back in the early winter, maybe February or March, and we would actually show people live.

 8:21
 Here's what it's like to go through with a screen reader and look at a bad form and describe, here's why it doesn't work because the field isn't labeled.

 8:29
 So you don't know what you're supposed to put in there.

 8:31
 And when you do it live, people actually get it more 'cause you're not giving them some lecture about ethics or something.

 8:37
 You're actually showing them this is what it's like to use this thing.

 8:40
 And so they see, oh, it doesn't work.

 8:41
 I see how that would be a problem.

 8:44
 And I think that kind of that way of showing people, I think usually works better than just telling people they should do it because it's good because normally, you know, that that doesn't always work as well as you'd hope.

 8:57
 And so part of what our team does is tries to make that connection from the abstract, what is this thing called accessibility and bring it down to a user experience.

 9:10
 And what we found over the course of the last year, since, you know, we've been working with other teams to help elevate the level of accessibility maturity of their websites, it really does matter.

 9:23
 Like you can see the expressions on people's faces when we talk with them and then try to help visualize the user experience.

 9:30
 And that's part of our findings.

 9:32
 Guidance that has been so well received is not just telling them what's wrong with the code, but also sharing what the user experience is for somebody who has low vision or can't use the mouse or is hearing impaired and, and things like that.

 9:50
 And it really making it tangible and real.

 9:55
 The, it changes the whole dynamics.

 9:57
 Absolutely, absolutely.

 9:59
 So we talked about, you know, the the impetus to do this is beyond just, it's the right thing to do.

 10:07
 Per current New York State technology law, by January 2027, all New York State agency websites must be compliant with Level AA web content accessibility guidelines or WCAG.

 10:19
 In lay terms, what does this mean and what is New York State already done to achieve this goal?

 10:26
 So when we talk about WCAG, it's a heavy duty, like less than 200 pages of materials that we try to break up into small chunks to make it more digestible.

 10:40
 And so when we boil down WCAG, what we mean are basically like there's 4 user groups that we need to think about: those who are vision impaired or blind, like Ethan, and the importance of making sure that people that can't see the screen are able to navigate just like their site appears.

 11:01
 And we also think about those that have low vision and the importance of color contrast.

 11:08
 If they have color blindness, for example, or low vision, they magnify the screens like 400% and make sure that things don't go off the page, right?

 11:19
 We also consider those users that that don't use a mouse.

 11:23
 And so these are all components of WCAG that are broken down into principles, POUR principles, POUR.

 11:33
 And so we break those principles down so that it's more relatable for the users.

 11:37
 And so the other, the third user type that we think about are those that are deaf or hearing impaired and the importance of closed captions and transcripts and audio descriptions where we have audio and video content, as well as the player that the content sits in.

 11:55
 Because if folks can't navigate the player like the stop button and the start button and the volume, then it doesn't matter whether the content's accessible or not, right?

 12:04
 So that's another part of it.

 12:06
 And then the other user group that we think about are those that can't use the mouse and the importance of, you know, if they use some other input device or you know, using the standard keyboard.

 12:20
 Making sure that you can navigate a website with just the tab key is like, it seems so basic, but it's a fundamental piece of that level of accessibility that in order to meet the New York State technology law, which is WCAG you know, 2.2 for January 27, right?

 12:40
 Absolutely.

 12:41
 Is there anything the accessibility team is working on right now that you would like to highlight?

 12:48
 Yeah, well, there's a few things we're doing.

 12:49
 We've been working with the design system team to make different components.

 12:54
 So different things like combo boxes, buttons, expandable and collapsible buttons.

 12:59
 They, they call them accordions for some reason.

 13:01
 But so I've been testing a lot of those to make sure that they work properly.

 13:06
 And then if they do, then basically any New York State agency can just put one of those on their website, just drop the code in.

 13:14
 And we know then that the thing they put in there is going to be accessible because it's already been tested.

 13:19
 So there's, there's plenty of stuff that's going on now that's pretty exciting.

 13:22
 And I think not to mention next week when this podcast will be released, it'll actually be Global Accessibility Awareness Day.

 13:32
 So if you're watching this on May 21st of any year, whether it's this year or another year, then that's what day it is.

 13:40
 I'm sure you'll see plenty of things online and all over the place.

 13:44
 We're certainly going to be doing an event.

 13:46
 So, if you're watching this on the day it's released, then come on up to the concourse.

 13:50
 We'll be doing a demonstration out there.

 13:53
 So yeah, there's exciting stuff coming up. And so, I'll just talk a little bit more about the design system, our cousins in it, you know, to accessibility.

 14:04
 And so the design system is the, you know, the components that they're building out. Think of plug and play, if you will, that are already accessible.

 14:15
 And so our team does a lot of collaboration with the design system folks to make sure that the design components that they're building have a level of accessibility built into them, as well as a ton of resources out on the site.

 14:32
 So even if you can't for whatever reason, use the design system components, you know, a button is a button, so to speak.

 14:40
 And so, you know, the design system has a whole list of information around how to consider accessibility when you're building a button if you know, if you can't take advantage of the design system.

 14:53
 And I'll just add about Global Accessibility Awareness Day.

 14:55
 So we talked about, you know, really set getting the mindset and, and raising the awareness of accessibility is to see it first hand.

 15:05
 And so as Ethan said, we're going to be down in the concourse and Ethan's going to be doing a demonstration and we're going to have two other sort of simulations, if you will, about how to, you know, how to navigate a New York State website with one of the user group that that we talked about.

 15:24
 So we're going to be there between 10:00 and 2:00.

 15:27
 And so, yeah, come down, say hello, introduce yourself.

 15:30
 We've been working with so many people virtually.

 15:33
 It would be wonderful to, to meet, you know, and see them and, and, and ask any and all questions.

 15:38
 You hear that?

 15:39
 Listeners, if you're in Albany and you, you're near the Empire State Plaza, come on down in the concourse and get some first hands, first, first-hand experience with accessibility.

 15:50
 And we might even bribe you with the little a little something, maybe even a little swag. A little swag.

 15:56
 I mean, everyone loves a little swag.

 15:59
 So how can our listeners support accessibility in general, not just for New York State websites?

 16:05
 What is one thing you hope they take away from this episode. Besides don't use click here. No, don't use click here, don't use learn more.

 16:13
 But also, you know, if you run a website or you have a website or you work at a company that runs a website, basically if you work in anything web-based, you know, look more into accessibility, see if you can find more.

 16:26
 There's tons of resources out there that you can find.

 16:31
 If you don't run a website and you're like, well, I don't know how to, I can't implement it myself.

 16:36
 Well, another thing you could do is you see a bug somewhere or something on a website that doesn't write, write the developer. Tell them like, hey, I just noticed this link is not accessible and here's why.

 16:49
 You know, maybe they'll fix it.

 16:50
 Sometimes they don't, but sometimes they do.

 16:53
 So that's really that's the way anyone, whether you work on software or not, can help.

 16:57
 So that's that's I think the best advice.

 17:00
 And one take away I think I'd mention is, you know, a lot of folks don't intentionally do inaccessible work.

 17:09
 It's just they don't know how to start perhaps.

 17:13
 And so one thing I would leave with the listeners is, you know, start using your tab key to navigate and, and your own, your own work, Word documents, PowerPoint presentations, whatever.

 17:25
 Start using the tab key and just, you know, sort of put yourself in the shoes of someone who uses a website differently and just starting to think about that in a different way.

 17:39
 And then ask questions, ask, you know, your, your team, like, are we making this accessible or how do we make this accessible?

 17:48
 And as you continually ask, it starts to, you know, becomes, you know, in the minds of folks, I'm in between the teams.

 17:57
 We start just organically elevating the level of accessibility, which we're all going to need at some point.

 18:04
 Exactly.

 18:04
 We always say accessibility is for everyone.

 18:06
 And if you don't need these resources today, you might need them tomorrow.

 18:10
 So, you know, overall it's just smart design.

 18:13
 It really is.

 18:14
 Absolutely. Ethan, Michelle, it was lovely speaking to both of you on such an important topic.

 18:21
 And I'm sorry to say we are almost out of time.

 18:23
 But before we go and our listeners know exactly what I'm about to ask, we ask all of our guests what is something that each of you is looking forward to this year?

 18:32
 Can be work related, can be personal, weather, really, it's really up to you.

 18:36
 You let me know.

 18:38
 Well, obviously the move up here has been really good.

 18:41
 I'm, I'm looking forward to getting to know the city better, to exploring more.

 18:45
 I mean, the winter, I must say, it was little more than I asked for.

 18:50
 If I become governor, I'm making this kind of weather illegal.

 18:53
 Totally.

 18:54
 We don't understand how anybody can put up with this.

 18:57
 It's a struggle every year. But here it is.

 18:59
 The summer is going to be great.

 19:01
 I'm not never going to have to deal with the 115 summer again.

 19:07
 But no, that's been good.

 19:10
 Been walking around more, exploring different places.

 19:12
 Might take a few trips to nearby places here and there, New York City, Boston, who knows.

 19:18
 So yeah, it's been good.

 19:20
 Wonderful! Enjoying living up here now. I'm, we're so happy to have you.

 19:23
 Welcome to the Empire State.

 19:25
 Yes.

 19:26
 And for me, the one thing I'm looking forward to this year is expanding the accessibility reach.

 19:33
 And so what I mean by that is we're getting close to finalizing procurement language so that as we, you know, reach out to our vendors, they too share in our commitment towards, you know, digital accessibility, as well as our updated ITS policy, so that the the ADA changed.

 20:00
 Their, their date, they, they extended the compliance deadlines another year.

 20:07
 And so we're taking the time to really refine our operations and our practices and give us time to work on that procurement language, work with vendors to help them create their accessibility conformance report so that when we want to procure an application, vendors know what it means when we say, when New York State says, because, you know, we, we want to continuously and consistently move towards better digital accessibility.

 20:37
 Absolutely.

 20:39
 Get get those blueberries in the muffin batter.

 20:42
 Michelle, Ethan, thank you again for helping us educate our listeners on accessibility and for all the important work your team does.

 20:50
 Thank you.

 20:50
 No problem.

 20:52
 Thank you.

 20:52
 Thank you for listening to IT'S a Tech Podcast.

 20:55
 For more information about ITS, visit our website at its.ny.gov.